Warning, large post. Skip to the linebreak if you aren't interested in each point one by one.
First, I want to thank you
mvp for your critique. I really do appreciate it, and if anyone else sees something they don't like/are concerned about, please voice your opinion.
I was in awe while reading this post.
So my first question,
FrozenSoviet, why you break my dreams? I want to be a priest and I want everybody to know I'm a priest but instead I'm told to pick up a certain number of skills. Now the way I'm reading this, and I might be completely off, is there will be a list of skills. Both combat and noncombat. We will have to choose what we want to do. It is almost like Runescape's system in that there is a whole load of skills we can do but you took a
huge step back by limiting me to a certain number. This now makes me create more characters and more accounts if I want to do other skills.
I understand we can't please everyone, so I'm sorry you can't be a priest class. But you know what, you can create something very similar if you choose the right skills and abilities. The idea of non-combat and combat related skills for MMOs is in no way unique to RuneScape. You see limiting the amount of skills you can put in skill slots as a step backward, but that's not the case (at least in my opinion).
Let me ask you this. How is this different from any typical class system, in the aspect of having to make multiple characters? In a typical class system, if I wanted to make a priest character, then a warrior character, then a merchant character, I would have to make multiple characters, just as you do in our current system. The difference is, now you have the option to mix and match, maybe you want to be an archer-mage, as you said. With a hard class system, you can't do that. In all other aspects, the purpose of the skill slots is actually to develop pseudo-classes where there are none, by limiting the amount of skills you can take. If there was no limit to the amount of skills you could take, everyone would end up with a jack of all trades character, and there would truly be no classes.
Now one of the things you emphasized is uniqueness of accounts. Sadly, I doubt this will be the case for the most part. My plan for this system is to create a mage-like character which gears towards all magic types and I will not even bother picking up a non-combat skill to maximize my damage output and utility. Another one of my characters will deal with non-combat skills. Is everybody thinking on my mindset? No. Of course not. I will see unique players who want to pair magic and ranged and other crazy combinations. I think it will be interesting to see the turnout but I know there will be users who walk the same path and decide to be a mage.
Indeed, you are free to create an entirely mage character, than an entirely noncombat character if you wish. No one is stopping you. In this way you are creating artificial classes for your characters, the purpose of skill slots is to give you the option to mix and match as you wish in addition to providing this option. In addition, as I mentioned before there are ability trees, so even if someone specs into all magic skills and no noncombat skills at all, they could take different paths down the ability trees as they wish. So one "all mage" character is not necessarily identical to another "all mage" character.
One thing I can assure you is I will not be changing my skills at any time. Why would I throw away my leveled skills to pick up something else when I can just create a new account? Great! you're keeping me on longer. +1 for your Frozen. I like it. I will be creating account after account after account trying to achieve the optimal character.
Again, creating multiple characters is characteristic of a class system. The purpose of being able to remove skills is so you don't have to throw away your other 9 skills you trained, and make an almost identical new character with only that 1 skill different, if you wanted to change only a little bit about your character.
I will be utilizing the temporary skill slot in your system though. I love the idea. This way (despite the original purpose) I can keep more skills than given. If I want to quickly smith something on a warrior, I trade a combat skill and get that smithing skill out of my temporary slot, smith the sword, and back to combat.
You are misinterpreting the use of the temporary slot. What you describe is also a concern of mine, I will take steps necessary to stop if it somehow happens in our current system. The temporary skill slot is, like the name implies, temporary. If you are a high level warrior, and add a temporary Smithing skill, well you won't be able to smith much anything useful for your high level warrior character with level 1 Smithing, will you? The purpose of it is so you can test out a skill, for say 3 days, and after that it will be removed from the temporary slot unless you want to permanently add it to one of your slots. This saves you the trouble of making an entirely new character every time you want to test out just one skill.
This is not the case, we do not intend to emulate Runescape. I have played it in the past, so I know how their system works. Indeed there are some similarities, but many of these concepts are not unique to Runescape. Let me start with the ability bar. It's true we want to implement something very similar to that bar. But this ability bar is not characteristic of Runescape, rather it is characteristic of an active time combat system. In fact it's basically the key to an active time combat system. There are hundreds of games out there that use an active time combat system, from Path of Exile, to World of Warcraft, to flash games like Arcuz.
Runescape's "abilities" (I think they call them something different) differ from ours in that they unlock as your character level advances, and aren't tree based. Abilities like this aren't unique to Runescape in any way, WoW does this too. In addition, only the combat skills in Runescape have abilities, and none are passive (that I remember). The abilities will be in a tree, so you will not have access to all of them, like you do in Runescape, and some will be passive. In addition, you missed the part about noncombat skills having abilities, which is not the case in Runescape.
Lastly, their skill system. This is where the games become most similar. We do both have a large selection of combat and noncombat abilties (again, not unique to Runescape, but the large selection is rather characteristic of Runescape), but as you mentioned, we have skill slots to limit the amount of abilities one character can have. This is actually a very important point that is not immediately apparent, our characters are pseudo-class based while Runescape's are jack-of-all-trades based. It's not a "worse Runescape" system, but a different system entirely masquerading behind a similar front of a wide skill variety.
In essence, since Runescape has implemented an active time combat system, and we have also implemented an active time system, of course they are similar in some ways. They use the same system, but just like hundreds of other games out there, they
are not the same game. In addition, this post does not go into combat itself, and numbers behind it. Let me tell you this, our system is extremely different from Runescape in that regard, it's almost Diablo-like.
Now I would like to end with a few questions. First of all, how will I know who does what? To elaborate further, will I be able to inspect players to see what skills they have on thus being able to see if they are fit to fight a boss? I do not want to find out mid fight that the player I picked up for a boss raid is also a healer and can not keep up the DPS pace because of his decisions.
Will gear compliment our classes or will there be a set "best gear"? Or will gear be almost classified into classes and "mages" will be hinted towards select gear while tanks will be lead towards another?
Will classes be forced to pick up defence to wear gear? If I decide I want to pick every skill besides defence, will my warrior be in robes that give no defence?
Since there are no classes, will there be a global resource (ie: mana)? In most games, warriors and archers do not consume as much resource as a mage. Do you have plans on balancing the consumption used by different classes such as giving "mages" +regeneration %?
How do you plan on stopping all characters from becoming healers? Why don't I just hand my already impenetrable tank a heal as well? I feel as if we all have heals that we will be overpowered. Some people might argue that in FO we all had a heal. Yes, but that heal wasn't capable of withstanding bosses that this game might hold.
Will ability points be skill specific or as I level up, I will gain ability points that I can just throw into one skill? Maybe I do not want to spend points in smithing although I picked it up and I want to be a hardcore healer. Will I be able to do this?
Will abilities have noticeable effects that I can see and tell what they are just by looking at them or will everything be "FO"-style and I will just be able to see a red line?
1. I'm not quite sure of this yet, actually. It's been debated, but right now I'll give you a "maybe" on inspecting other player's skills. You could always ask them to take a screenshot of course, if we don't end up implementing the ability to examine another player's skills.
2. There won't be a "best gear" for all classes. It would be similar to what your describe second, nudging people to the gear better for their character type.
3. No. You are completely free to make a glass cannon character, and of course you will have worse armor than a tank character, but you won't be left naked. The Defense skill actually doesn't have too much to deal with enabling you to wear most armor types, it's more about providing tankish abilities. Some equipment will be limited by it, but not the majority.
4. Yes, mana is the global resource. And yes, there will definitely be balancing there to make sure mages aren't given the hard stick as compared to warriors.
5. By the ability tree system. If you spec into a ton of healing abilities, you won't have many points left for defensive things. In essence the healing IS your defense. You won't have both super tankyness and super healing.
6. This is not yet determined, so I can't give you a straight answer. Tentatively (don't quote me on this) it will probably be noncombat skills getting ability points from their skill levels themselves, and combat abilities from character level, not individual skill level. This prevents someone maxing out both a healing tree and a defense tree and a magic tree.
7. Hopefully yes, we haven't talked about it too much at this point, and I don't know much about the artsy animations side as I'm more of a design guy.
A little note for everybody else. The story - class combination
FrozenSoviet hints at at the end of his post is most likely similar to world of warcraft's legendary items where you complete a quest or series of quests and you obtain a legendary item. If this is the path the game will be taking, these quests will be restricted by your skills and will require certain skills or levels to pick up the quest.
It wouldn't be an MVP post if it wasn't longer than the original.
As pink said, this is not what I was talking about. We will have quests restricted by your skills, though. The story - class combination I was referring to also differentiates us farther from games like WoW or Runescape.
So I guess my words at the beginning of the post weren't entirely accurate. There are no classes, rather pseudo classes. The skill slot system is our effort to make a class system, without actually making classes. It blends the positive sides of classes with the option of mixing, matching, and customizing, while at the same time not letting you be the jack of all trades (which is unhealthy for the game in my opinion).
That aside, I'm curious, you seemed to make arguments for the benefits of a hard class system, and also for the benefits of a jack of all trades system like Runescape, both at the same time. Which do you prefer personally? If you like both, then maybe when you see the system in action you'll like it better, as it's really a mix.