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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 20:30:35 GMT
Post by mvp on Mar 21, 2014 20:30:35 GMT
I agree I hated those "suggested players" / boss quests. I just threw those aside and continued power grinding with my chat off so I never had to talk to anybody (hopefully I can turn my chat off altogether in this game too). My relations between players only consisted between people who I invited or have met in the past through other means. Both were short lived.
However, I do remember times where I'd meet somebody in the area of another game and be "oh you're on this quest too? lets just quickly kill this boss and well part ways." But force is never the way to go. Encouragement is a powerful tool though. My brother used to play FO. He never got past level 40 (non-rb) because we could never do anything together. He quit shortly after I started since there was nothing we could team up on. Given the option to be a little more connected in our leveling, I'm sure he would have played a little more.
As always, we all have our own ways of playing. I wish you luck finding the optimal point between the conflicting opinions. Hopefully you will be able to withstand the infuriated feedback you will be receiving from those who do not agree with all your updates.
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Post by PinkCrown on Mar 21, 2014 20:32:19 GMT
If there's anything we have plenty of experience of for making a game, it's having people get mad at us
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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 21:05:54 GMT
Post by mvp on Mar 21, 2014 21:05:54 GMT
If there's anything we have plenty of experience of for making a game, it's having people get mad at us Well maybe if your crown was more carnation pink rather than that stupid lavender pink you're stunting on your picture, we wouldn't have this problem! Come on, didn't you read llama's report on how lavender pink tenses up the prefrontal cortex thus causing the release of cerebrospinal fluid and infuriating the users by clouding their hippocampus! It is simple things like this that can be resolved. I know because my brother's cousin's friend went to doctor school and got his NBA and NFL. I'm right because I'm a simple user whose attention span rests minisculely higher than the average 10 minutes 33 seconds and 764 milliseconds. Now this is going to be on my mind for the rest of the day or until something more insignificant and pointless comes up! I have faith in you guys. What was this topic about?
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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 21:15:49 GMT
Post by Teslafish on Mar 21, 2014 21:15:49 GMT
Now I've seen pinky and llama are kind of anti grouping I'm a bit worried My favorite part about MMO's is meeting people and making friends So please do find a way to encourage teaming up with people, tho I understand if you want to keep solo playstyle as beneficial as group playstyle. Maybe try to mix in a support class into the game? This could make people want to team up for bosses etc (I know it's not that simple, I trust you guys can come up with some better ways to encourage teaming ^^)
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Cloud73
Rock Crab
You weren't born to be perfect, You were born to be yourself
Posts: 80
FO Level Status: Ascended
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Age
Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 21:17:00 GMT
Post by Cloud73 on Mar 21, 2014 21:17:00 GMT
There is another thread somewhere around here about age restrictions. Game will have to be 13+ because of coppa law in US. ok cool im actually of age to play this one
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Post by PinkCrown on Mar 21, 2014 21:21:24 GMT
Now I've seen pinky and llama are kind of anti grouping I'm a bit worried My favorite part about MMO's is meeting people and making friends I promise we aren't anti-grouping We are just anti-forcing. We're all about choice and inclusion man.
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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 21:21:40 GMT
mvp likes this
Post by Lighterthief on Mar 21, 2014 21:21:40 GMT
I would say we encourage both grouping and playing solo where neither style would be forced. Llama and Pink were just re-assuring some players here that grouping wouldn't be forced. An MMO without groups is silly.
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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 22:08:19 GMT
Post by mvp on Mar 21, 2014 22:08:19 GMT
If instances or personalized areas are going to exist, I imagine grouping is going to be a must. Now I think bosses should REQUIRE a group but leveling should not. Even though I hate playing with others, I still think bosses and raids should be hard enough that I have to join up with people. There's an immense difference between me with a group of devoted players attempting to beat a challenge and me killing a boss alone. So don't force group leveling or questing but don't make this game a face roll. I hate people but I want to feel apart of an overwhelming accomplishment.
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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 22:45:05 GMT
Post by iamallama on Mar 21, 2014 22:45:05 GMT
There is a difference between forcing a group and making something so hard that you need a group to beat it. With the latter, I would have the choice to skip for now and come back later more powerful to face it on my own.
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Posted On: Mar 21, 2014 23:04:24 GMT
Post by FrozenSoviet on Mar 21, 2014 23:04:24 GMT
Personally, I think groups should offer a lesser xp rate than solo fighting the same monsters/boss without a group. This is because it is much easier fighting as a group than fighting solo, if you fight the same monsters. Fighting solo you undertake more risk, more possibility of dying, and the fight lasts much longer than when you take a monster down with a group. This should be rewarded with a better xp rate.
However, teaming up in groups does allow you to take on tougher monsters than you would individually. This means if you team up with other people and fight tougher monsters that you couldn't defeat solo, you may make the same xp as fighting solo, perhaps even better in some cases.
This way both solo players will be rewarded for soloing which is more difficult than grouping, and groups will be either rewarded for taking on a harder set of monsters, or have that guarantee of safety when taking on the the same monsters as the solo player.
I think that satisfies both parties.
The options for how xp and loot will be split in groups is a more difficult question because you want to keep it fair/customizable, yet balanced against power leveling as well, and we have not discussed it as of yet. You can be sure there will be a discussion on this sometime in the future, but we haven't quite gotten to this stage yet, and in the meantime I'll brainstorm a few things up formula wise.
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Posted On: Mar 22, 2014 1:14:00 GMT
Post by boogerrito on Mar 22, 2014 1:14:00 GMT
I like where this is going.
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Posted On: Mar 22, 2014 1:23:15 GMT
Post by iamallama on Mar 22, 2014 1:23:15 GMT
By adding a % per group member, I mean add a % and then it is split. So if you added 10% per additional group member, when you have 2 members, the total exp rate is at 110%, then split into 2 to give each 55%. Small bonus for being in a group, but still less per monster than solo. But you should be able to attack more monsters with two people in a group so you make a little more in the end.
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Posted On: Mar 22, 2014 2:04:40 GMT
Post by mvp on Mar 22, 2014 2:04:40 GMT
Personally, I think groups should offer a lesser xp rate than solo fighting the same monsters/boss without a group. This is because it is much easier fighting as a group than fighting solo, if you fight the same monsters. Fighting solo you undertake more risk, more possibility of dying, and the fight lasts much longer than when you take a monster down with a group. This should be rewarded with a better xp rate. However, teaming up in groups does allow you to take on tougher monsters than you would individually. This means if you team up with other people and fight tougher monsters that you couldn't defeat solo, you may make the same xp as fighting solo, perhaps even better in some cases. This way both solo players will be rewarded for soloing which is more difficult than grouping, and groups will be either rewarded for taking on a harder set of monsters, or have that guarantee of safety when taking on the the same monsters as the solo player. I think that satisfies both parties.
The options for how xp and loot will be split in groups is a more difficult question because you want to keep it fair/customizable, yet balanced against power leveling as well, and we have not discussed it as of yet. You can be sure there will be a discussion on this sometime in the future, but we haven't quite gotten to this stage yet, and in the meantime I'll brainstorm a few things up formula wise. Let me demonstrate why a communist xp system between a group is a useless idea. My examples will be based on a turn system. Do freak out, it is only supposed to represent the time between attacks. Players============================monsters 100/100-----------------------------100/100 100/100-----------------------------100/100 100/100-----------------------------100/100 For reading purposes, for the players, I put current health on the inside for quick comparison. {All on 1} Turn 1 Players============================monsters
100/100-----------------------------100/100(No aggro) 100/80------------------------------40/100 100/100-----------------------------100/100(No aggro)
Turn 2 Players============================monsters
100/100-----------------------------100/100(No aggro) 100/60------------------------------0/100 100/100-----------------------------100/100(No aggro) Note: For realism, No attack was used for the third person. Unless this team was truly dedicated to powerleveling, no user will calculate when the monster will die and then forcefully change his attacks. I added damage to the 2nd player just for the argument's sake.
+30 xp
Turn 3 Players============================monsters
100/80-----------------------------40/100 100/60------------------------------0/100 100/100-----------------------------100/100(No aggro)
Turn 4 Players============================monsters
100/60-----------------------------0/100 100/60------------------------------0/100 100/100-----------------------------100/100(No aggro) Note: No attack was used for the third person.
+30 xp
Turn 5 Players============================monsters
100/60-----------------------------0/100 100/60------------------------------0/100 100/80-----------------------------40/100
Turn 6 Players============================monsters
100/60-----------------------------0/100 100/60------------------------------0/100 100/60-----------------------------0/100 Note: No attack was used for the third person.
+30 xp
Turns taken: 6 Now each player must heal up or go through another 6 "turns" then wait double the time.
{Attacking seperately}
For realism, the players attack first as to not have players run into a suicide attempt..
Turn 1 Players============================monsters
100/80-----------------------------80/100 100/80-----------------------------80/100 100/80-----------------------------80/100
Turn 2 Players============================monsters
100/60-----------------------------60/100 100/60-----------------------------60/100 100/60-----------------------------60/100
Turn 3 Players============================monsters
100/40-----------------------------40/100 100/40-----------------------------40/100 100/40-----------------------------40/100
Turn 4 Players============================monsters
100/20-----------------------------20/100 100/20-----------------------------20/100 100/20-----------------------------20/100
Turn 5 Players============================monsters
100/20-----------------------------0/100 100/20-----------------------------0/100 100/20-----------------------------0/100 Note: as stated before: players attacked first so they also got the last hit.
+30 xp +30 xp +30 xp
Turns taken: 5
Alright now the arguments can start to form. First of all, I would like to acknowledge that is in no way a proper scenario. Now, most would think the first method, ganging up on one mob is the best due to the remaining hp. Well that extra turn taken may save some HP, it all depends on the time taken to regain the hp. Since this is in no way realistic, lets just say the rest time is 1 turn... Hell it can be 2 turns and method 2 would still prosper. Anyways, this is beyond the point. In both examples, the groups were able to kill the monsters. One was faster than the other though. Remove the 2 users in the party and return to killing. Since the players are removed and the XP is not split, that means 1 kill is 90 xp. So assume it takes 5 turns for this one user to get 90 xp, that means it is completely balanced and thus no reason to team up. In a more realistic situation, users are unbalanced and players deal more or less damage. Lets go back to the 20 damage bar. I team up with a player who does 15 damage and I do 25 damage. Since he is taking longer to kill the monsters than I am, I am sharing xp with somebody who offers me no benefit. Thus there is no real reason to party up!!! You need to have a modifier if you plan to do parties otherwise you can weighing down the better players and leveraging the bad players. Here is Blizzard's party modifier: 1 person group = 1.0 2 person group = 1.0 3 person group = 1.166 4 person group = 1.3 5 person group = 1.4 With example: 1 person = 100xp 2 people = 50xp each. 3 people = ~39xp each. 4 people = ~33xp each. 5 people = ~28xp each. SourceI also wrote a little piece on group looting in another post. I think that might be of some assistance later on. {My recent post} I personally believe we are focusing too much on this idea of a global loot system (free for all) where anybody in the party can view the loot and not focusing any attention on how this can resolved with a variety of other systems. I can tell you now that if somebody was stealing loot then the rest can leave the party and create a fair party. Problem solved there. Ninja looting by the party leader is a common issue in games that insist with such a system. I hope we can work around that though. So here are some citations from the wowwiki how on World of Warcraft deals with looting: {The blizzard solution} SourceBlizzard incorporated a variety of ways to deal with the looting issue aside from this free-for-fall approach we are talking about. Jagex took their own method for dealing with this situation as well: {The jagex solution} We can also incorporate a damage system if that is a better solution. By analyzing who did more damage to the monster, the loot is determined and given to the appropriate players. In boss situations, players with the best gear continue to get the best gear though. However all these methods do have their flaws. There is no chance all of these are coded especially in the early stages. These should just be seen as options as a way to fix this situation. I don't believe we need to leave it as a single "luck"-like attribute determines the outcome of loot for a single player. By increasing the party size and implementing this system, you are increasing the amount of items dropped by roughly 300% or so (assuming 4 players in a party). This might be an issue with over inflation and I highly suggest it is looked into before committed to.
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Posted On: Mar 22, 2014 2:39:47 GMT
Post by iamallama on Mar 22, 2014 2:39:47 GMT
That is pretty much what I was saying it should be. With each player you end up with slightly more total exp that is then split between N number of players.
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Acappella
Rock Crab
Level 120
Posts: 83
FO Level Status: Ascended
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Age
Posted On: Mar 22, 2014 8:09:51 GMT
mdccxxvii likes this
Post by Acappella on Mar 22, 2014 8:09:51 GMT
As lama has said, its not impossible to implement leveled mobs. Many games have done it. Also not all mobs have to have this system, it could be used for bosses, or areas where some folks just want to grind xp. Implementing it at quest stage is wrong. Implementing at the stage of click to attack/engage combat, is the time those calcs take place. Implementing for grouping mobs/bosses, means average level probably would be easiest to do, originaly FO had a level cap at which folks could group.
Just to point out an advantage to programmers, this method for creation of mobs makes it easier due to the scaling of mobs is already in, just introduce more mobs(A lot easier for rolling out new content). In a system where you have to input the data for each mob, you manually have to calc what level you wish the mob to be, and all other info in regards to stats/rewards/xp rewards.
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